Re: [isp-wireless] It's great to see technology bringing change

[Martes G Wigglesworth <martes@...>]

You are very correct. 

There are some serious pitfalls in only being a science-based society,
however, I was putting my own two-cents into the mix because it seems
that no one ever seems to argue that point.  War is a necessary evil,
created by a society that is based on the imperfections of an imperfect
being.  I am not a war monger, or one of those types. I just observe the
fact that we, as a society are flawed, and until we get to a point where
we are able to quell such things as war, and individual crime, we are no
better off putting our proverbial heads into the sand and omitting
scientific discovery from necessary social activity.  I don't see why
this seems to come up so much.  Powerless protest and inability to think
logically should not be seen as a requisite to being on a heightened
state of existence.  In fact you have to have a healthy mixture of
scientific exploration and liberal social expression.

In your second paragraph, you seem to make my point.  I am a vet. with a
purple heart from OIF II, so your soldier and priest examples in my
humble opinion, are much more important to a society's well being, than
someone who is getting paid a ridiculous some of money to do what others
do as a hobby.  I am not saying that those individuals are less
important than the sports personalities. I am actually stating the
opposite view.  I feel that it is nice that some people can spend their
lives never growing up, and getting paid to do so, however, I do have a
bit of an issue with how our society treats these people, and how we are
told from a young age how they are "role models" for us.  I wish that I
had grown up thinking that professionals within my community were heroes
for being successful where there was great adversity, etc... However,
that is not how America works.  If you have a whole bunch of money for
no real reason, then you are a hero.  Even more so if you are so much of
a lucky person that you can thumb your nose at the common working
person. It just makes no sense to me, and probably never will.

The engineer may be creating something deadly, and that is for another
discussion, however, he did not just decide that he was not going to
study, or do homework and spend all his time to practice what he is
doing.  It took years of laborious studying and work, and still the
income is not in the millions. (Entrepreneurship not being observed)

However, Micheal Jordon is an international business man now, purely
because he can put a basketball in a hoop.  I understand that he is a
bad example because he is quite intelligent, and has a BA, etc...  My
point is that I find it very unlikely that he would be anything more
than a nicely paid executive that has to still work everyday if he had
tried to do the business career without any basketball funding or having
played at all.

But no one sees anything wrong with this picture?????

I hear what you are saying, Michael, and I greatly agree with much of
your assessments about your educational system's disfunction.

I also did not catch the cooking flour != botanical flower before I sent
the message, however, thanks for the dialog, and the keen eye. 

Hehehe.

It made me laugh quite a bit.... I was in the middle of making fried
fish batter, for lunch.  Gotta stop operating on auto pilot, one of
these days...



On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 13:35 -0400, Michael J. Erskine wrote:
> Martes;
> 
> Methinks you fail to understand the larger picture.  All the science in 
> the world has failed to prevent "global warming", has it not?  Rather it 
> has given us the technology to encourage it, has it not?  All of the 
> physics in the world have failed to prevent war, has it not?  Rather it 
> has given us not just atomic weapons but hydrogen and even neutron 
> weapons.  It has not given us the moral fiber not to use them.  All the 
> science in the world has failed to feed the poor in the third world , 
> even though it has given us the technology to grow enough food to feed 
> those hungry people.  Rather it has encouraged us to create fuel from 
> food stocks.  Science is wonderful but science fails to teach wisdom.
> 
> I think you mis-characterize athletes when you call them "glorified 
> selective lottery winners" ... "doing a remedial task for millions of 
> dollars".  How do you characterize a systems engineer designing a new 
> weapons system which will eventually kill thousands of people for a 
> couple of hundred thousand dollars per year?  How do you characterize a 
> priest working in the ghetto to feed the homeless for $15,000.00 per 
> year?  How do you characterize a man like Pat Tillman or an infantry 
> soldier working for $30,000.00 per year doing a job that any body who 
> can ruck up and take basic instructions can do.  I am saying that no man 
> has any intrinsic worth over another whether he is a scientist, a 
> priest, or a soldier.  The problem you are pointing at is a problem with 
> a societies values and science has never taught values.
> 
> You say that a degree in computer science does not preclude the ability 
> to read, no it doesn't but it certainly does seem to preclude the 
> ability to write a cogent sentence.  Have you read the technical manuals 
> that computer scientists and programmers produce?  I have, I am a 
> Computer Scientist... Texas A & M University, 1990.  I learned to write 
> in the humanities department, not the computer science department.
> 
> The argument being made here is that technology is not character 
> building.  Being able to write code, or route networks, or understand 
> what happens at a PN junction does not improve one's character.  
> Speaking another language usually does help to give you perspectives 
> into another culture and may well be beneficial to one's character.  
> Studying the history of slavery in America may well do something to 
> improve one's character and to broaden one's perspective on humanity and 
> society and what one man should never do to another.  A reading of "Les 
> Miserables" is far more morally instructive than a reading of "C 
> Programming by Kernigan and Ritchie".  That is the point being made here.
> 
> Technology has eliminated the need to balance a check book.  Just use 
> your debit card and watch your balance.  That technology is convenient 
> but it doesn't prevent people from whipping out their check book and 
> writing a check for money they don't have in their account.
> 
> We are not saying that technology or science is bad, we are not 
> Luddites.  We are realists.  We know what technology and science do best 
> and we know what humanities do best.
> 
> As for the educational system in the US.  There is no lack of money.  
> There is a lack of competency in the staff and a failure at all levels 
> in the educational system to educate.  There is a failure in parenting 
> which has the general public believing that the educational system 
> should "baby sit" their children but should not have the authority to 
> discipline them.  There is a failure in the educational system to 
> understand it's function is to educate children and not to raise them, 
> or to get between the child and the parent.  The educational system in 
> this country is in a terrible state and getting worse.
> 
> ... flour child != flower child ...
> ;)
> 
> -m-
> 
> Martes G Wigglesworth wrote:
>  > I must disagree with the "classical" mindset.  We are the minority in
>  > that those of us who are in this technology industry take for granted
>  > the myriad of rich, and not so rich, morons that run this country, and
>  > those that are their similarly single-minded offspring.  If all of the
>  > US felt so passionately about learning that their children would simply
>  > come across the correct knowledge simply by exposure, then we would not
>  > have 30K per year earning blue-collar workers spending thousands on
>  > season tickets to see glorified selective-lottery winners put a ball in
>  > a hoop. I have always felt that it is a slap in the face to people that
>  > make so little for working quite hard, however they still seem to think
>  > sports personalities are so great for doing a remedial task for millions
>  > of dollars.  I have always been stumped by that...
>  >
>  > We don't value education enough, as a whole, so keeping certain
>  > technologies only for home use does not seem to be beneficial to me.
>  > What about that budding physicist that does not have a computer at home,
>  > and whose parents are wait staff at Denny's, etc????  That young female,
>  > or male will be at a disadvantage by not having access to such
>  > educational tools, and the appropriate training.  I got into
>  > computational technologies late, around 22, and I am still learning.  I
>  > completely understand how a 14-year-old boy can hack into the Pentagon
>  > in the early 90's.  If you have access to the tools early enough, then
>  > it is like learning more than one language at the age of four years old.
>  > ( I never see anyone complaining when multiple languages is the issue,
>  > but no one wants to talk about math or science or computational
>  > education.... ????)
>  >
>  > Just because we expose our offspring to technology does not mean that
>  > everyone does, and we should not consider that any new method of
>  > education is "the devil" metaphorically speaking.  It is highly unlikely
>  > that a teenager that can text at 70-words per minute is unable to finish
>  > a novel, unless they are not given the right motivation at home.  It is
>  > impossible to be a computer scientist and not be able to read, hence it
>  > can not hinder the more classic ideas of reading writing, and
>  > arithmetic.  Having computational mathematics programming training 
> does not all of a
>  > sudden make a similar teenager unable to calculate their checking
>  > account balance.
>  >
>  > Those types of ideas about education are what keeps certain
>  > socio-economically distressed areas of our great nation at a virtual
>  > standstill. I feel that it is a bit arrogant to think that everyone has
>  > the same resources that we may be able to supply to our children, so
>  > therefore it should not be supplied by the school.
>  >
>  > Also, as far as the humanities trumping the sciences.....  Do you really
>  > want an entire generation that is even less interested in how our world
>  > works, than they already are?????  Why do you think that all the other
>  > countries are catching, or have surpassed, us in the race for
>  > development?  It sure isn't because they are teaching their kids to pay
>  > attention to Paris Hilton, and how nifty fashion can change the world.
>  >
>  > I may be a bit cynical, but I can say as a physics major, and in the
>  > future a computational magnetohydrodynamics researcher, I have seen
>  > these arguments embodied every day of my life, and it is sickening.
>  > Like here in Richmond, where Governor Wilder stopped the art foundation
>  > from fleecing the city because all the rich people in the county have
>  > treated the city like some Artsy little play ground for years, rather
>  > than building infrastructure and businesses to further develop and
>  > upgrade the type of jobs available.(I am referencing the huge hole that
>  > was in the middle of the city because the art people wanted to sell the
>  > land back to the city for more than they paid, after they did not begin
>  > development by the prescribed time, a few years ago...)
>  >
>  > Humanities are necessary, however, I don't think that they need anymore
>  > emphasis than already granted.  I always hear these arguments from
>  > educators, but I would like to know who is actually teaching humanities
>  > as little as everyone always seems to think?  I only had one science
>  > course per semester until my senior year in high school, but some flour
>  > child was trying to make me sing and learn about Bach, or civics or
>  > whatever, in like three other classes during those same semesters.
>  > I have never quite understood that one.
>  >
>  > On Tue, 2008-07-08 at 09:39 -0500, ccrum wrote:
>  > 
>  >> How many of us have teenagers or have run across teenagers who can 
> put our computer skills to shame? The fact is kids pick up technology 
> skills on their own just because it is part of the culture. I hope my 
> daughter never touches a computer at school unless it is to type a 
> paper. She'll get plenty of exposure from me on that front. I need them 
> to help me teach her the old fashioned way. I agree with you Michael, 
> and that's why I sought out the "classical" program. The Greeks sure got 
> that part right.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> Cameron
>  >>
>  >> Michael J. Erskine wrote:
>  >>   
>  >>> Some French (Matthew Whalley Grade School, Williamsburg, VA), 
> German (York High School, Yorktown, VA), Korean (Defense Language 
> Institute, Monterey, CA)...  here.  Sometimes it is useful, sometimes it 
> is useless.  I think you are right about the Math, Science, English, 
> History, and Government.  Technology is irrelevant at the grade school 
> level and more humanities would be better there.  In high school they 
> need to be taught how to type and research the Internet, and that is 
> about it unless they want to specialize.
>  >>>
>  >>> What we need to do with High School kids is teach them the 
> humanities, not huge loads of science.  A good understand of the 
> humanities imparts an ability to reason morally.  If you have not 
> studied Shakespeare you have not reasoned morally.  Until you can reason 
> by the Socratic Method, you don't need to understand the mysteries of 
> science.  If you have not read, Moses (or a similar teacher) you don't 
> need to understand the power of physics or chemistry because you will 
> fail to use them wisely.  Living proof is on your doorstep, and in your 
> trash can...
>  >>>
>  >>> We suffer not from a lack of science but from a failure to 
> comprehend the teachings of history.
>  >>>
>  >>> Lying to an enemy because you can speak his language as well as he 
> can is even more cool than sending music over a laser beam in 1969.  
> Breaking his codes is too cool for words...  but what has any of it done 
> to solve the problems we have today.
>  >>>
>  >>> This technology we love so much is a toy, and nothing more, until 
> we can bend it to solve the problems we face today.
>  >>>
>  >>> Just my two...
>  >>> -m-
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> Jaime Solorza wrote:
>  >>>     
>  >>>> Yes...I learned French in the 6,7 and 8th grade.  The first Latin 
> I learned was as an altar boy and then in High School. I think kids 
> should have math, science, English, history (your country's and world), 
> and government all four years of high school!
>  >>>> Technology can be applied to all these disciplines....imagine a 
> class in Japanese  language and culture video linked to Japan and they 
> are taking an English language and US culture simultaneously!     If I 
> taught English Lit, I would use PBS and MASH to teach kids the power of 
> words!
>  >>>> I was lucky that my mom worked hard to put me through two years of 
> a Jesuit education...I also had work study (Fresh and Sophomore 
> years)...the school was closed and I transferred to my first public 
> school...what a change!  Only our chemistry teacher gave us 
> homework...even though I took Trig, Calculus, Eng III and IV..  and it 
> was kind of cool learning from teachers with several degrees under their 
> belts...We had one priest (6'11''  300 lbs..no fat) who was also a 
> physicist  at WSMR !!!   He taught the advance science class and did 
> cool experiments....shooting music through a laser beam back in 1969 is 
> still cool in my book...
>  >>>> Jaime
>  >>>>
>  >>>> George wrote:
>  >>>>       
>  >>>>> Jaime Solorza wrote:
>  >>>>>         
>  >>>>>> Latin is a great language to learn for many in the medical and 
> legal profession but it has always helped me with all aspects of my 
> personal and professional life...
>  >>>>>> she will be part of the "cognos scenti"  !
>  >>>>>>
>  >>>>>>            
>  >>>>> When I was a young boy, we used to do the mass in latin, was an 
> alter boy. Back then they taught latin in grade school. They also taught 
> us french in the 3rd grade.
>  >>>>>
>  >>>>>




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